Personal Responsibility vs. Systemic Awareness: Where Two Clinicians Draw the Line | Dr. Sumi

Episode 10 features Dr. Sumi in a candid conversation on personal responsibility, systemic awareness, and where clinicians draw the line.

Dr. Sumi shares her perspective on how systems oriented therapy is often misunderstood, and what it actually looks like in practice. From exploring the role of context in shaping identity to unpacking how clinicians can hold both individual responsibility and systemic awareness, this conversation challenges the way these ideas are commonly presented, especially on social media.

Together, we examine the tension between validation and agency, the importance of the therapeutic relationship, and how clinicians can create environments where clients feel both safe and empowered. This episode also highlights the risks of over identifying with either personal responsibility or systemic explanations, and what it takes to navigate both with clarity and discernment.

This conversation challenges the idea that therapy should lean entirely in one direction. It calls you into a more balanced understanding, one that prioritizes nuance, responsibility, and the ability to ask better questions rather than make assumptions.

What we cover:

• The difference between systems oriented therapy and common misconceptions
• The role of the biopsychosocial model in effective clinical work
• Why the therapeutic relationship is the strongest predictor of growth
• How identity can create safety without becoming a mandate
• The tension between personal responsibility and systemic awareness
• Risks of reinforcing victimhood versus building agency
• Reframing experiences to reduce shame and increase clarity
• Dr. Sumi’s framework for growth meaning, connection, and joy
• Why joy is often overlooked but essential in healing
• The importance of applying therapy outside the session
• Social media’s influence on mental health narratives
• Professional responsibility in communicating nuance and hope

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

As a client, if there's not much that you're interested in talking about there, I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it. That's not healthy therapeutic approach.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

I thought it would be valuable to have a conversation with someone whose work includes helping people understand the systems, environments, and the context that shapes our experiences. Let me introduce you to Dr. Sumi.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I describe myself as a cross-cultural clinical psychologist. I was a professor for undergraduate and graduate students training future therapists.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

One of the biggest challenges within the mental health space right now is that we're often talking past each other instead of with each other. People do want to be seen and understood on their individual merits.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

That is important.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome to Capacity Combos. I'm Raquel Hopkins, and this is a space for thoughtful conversations about who we become when life asks more of us. Here we talk with people whose lives and work reflect real capacity, how they stayed engaged, made hard decisions, and grew without shrinking in the face of challenge. This is where we explore what life demanded, and the moment you realize I can hold more than I thought. I'm not in therapy for a lecture. I'm there because something in my life isn't working. I can understand the systems and how the world works all day long, but still not know how to live in it. And as you can imagine, that sparked some conversation. Some therapists agreed, some therapists strongly disagree. But one response in particular caught my attention, and that was from Dr. Sumi, who has given me the permission to call her Sumi. But when you see her in Please do. But what stood out to me in the comments section was she wasn't trying to convince me I was wrong or defend her work. Instead, she offered nuance, which I think is really important on social media because oftentimes you don't get an opportunity to do that in a 60, 90-second clip or just from written content. So, as someone who spends a lot of time talking about personal responsibility, agency, and capacity, and how we navigate life, I thought it would be valuable to have a conversation with someone whose work includes helping people understand the systems, environments, and the context that shapes our experiences. Because I think one of the biggest challenges within the mental health space right now is that we're often talking past each other instead of with each other. So this is an opportunity for you and I to have a conversation. And we've met before and we've talked and I've shared there are some things I don't necessarily agree with, and there are some things that she doesn't necessarily agree with. And I think that that's what makes the world go around. It does not mean that we cannot connect because we don't necessarily wear the same blue-color lenses. I just don't think that it would make sense if we if we did see the world the same way. But I'm excited to have you here. Uh today we're gonna explore what a systemic perspective actually is, where it helps, where people misunderstand it, and how we can hold space for both personal responsibility and systemic realities at the same time. So without further ado, let me introduce you to Dr. Sumi, and I'll let her introduce you all, introduce herself and speak to her background.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Thank you so much, Raquel. Thank you for inviting me here today. I'm so glad you reached out. I'm glad we've had a chance to connect. Um, I'm Dr. Sumi Raghavan. I describe myself as a cross-cultural clinical psychologist. I'm trained as a clinical psychologist, and I spent actually most of my career in academia. I was a professor for undergraduate and graduate students, training future therapists. And as a clinician, I had a small private practice. And then I actually left academia after I was granted tenure, which is not something that happens typically, but I did that for a variety of reasons, including aspects of my own burnout and a desire to be a bigger part of supporting and helping people in my clinical practice. And I really enjoy the dialogue that we have because I would agree with you that we don't have to agree on everything to be aligned on some aspects of how we want to support and uplift people. I joined social media not that long ago and have, like you, kind of not always been able to make sense of what I see on in the social media spaces. And I really value nuanced dialogue because I think it's easy to lose that on social media. So I'm looking forward to our chat today. Tell me, where would you like to begin?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Well, one I want to say like congrats to you on making tenure as a professor. I know how difficult that is, so I can only imagine how hard it was for you to walk away from that. But maybe Yeah, no problem. Maybe let's start with um maybe just a little context in terms of your background and why you choose to, I guess, define yourself as more of a systemic or liberation therapist. Start yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

You got it. Sure. I mean, all of us as clinicians, as a professor, I taught this, as a student, I learned this. We're all trained in the biopsychosocial model. This is the model that tells us that we understand people based on their biology, their psychology, and their social experiences. And to me, the systems framework is the social component of that. To me, it offers us a way of understanding in an expansive and broad way how someone's experience of the world and the version of the world that they're born into shapes who they become. Systems-oriented work is not about stereotyping or placing people in boxes. It's not about seeing people exclusively through the lens of a particular identity. Systems therapy is also, we don't, you know, I don't in session give clients lectures about patriarchy or capitalism. I am tuned into their various identities, and I'm thinking about how their experience of that has shaped how they see themselves, how they interact with others, how they understand their place in the world, how it enhances their understanding of the self, how experiences of discrimination and mistreatment have negatively impacted them, how experiences of their identity have been protective, valuable, meaningful, connective. But this is all part of the story. And for me, this framework is very much in the service of a greater understanding of the client and an ability to use that to help clients understand themselves, to reduce feelings of shame, to reduce self-blame, to feel more empowered to take steps, to reduce a feeling of individual internal pathology by placing some experiences in a broader context. That's sort of my goal and why that work kind of calls to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I love the way that you explain that because I would agree with all of that. I think that with having social media now and as therapists being seen as a business, a lot of people do niche down. So my understanding as a therapist is everything that you just said. So I don't see a lot of value in saying that I am a systems-based or liberation therapist. And I think that that is why I struggle with that. Now, I know that you do not have a lot of multi- or culturally competent professionals in any industry. I mean, I my background is in HR, and you're gonna see leaders that are not culturally competent in a lot of different arenas. To me, that that just comes with being uh a human in a lot of ways. It doesn't make the behavior necessarily right. But I guess what's the balance between us as professionals understanding that we see people or we can operate from this bio uh biosocial model. However, where's the balance with putting the language out there to where people are coming to us because oh, Raquel's a black therapist, or you know, Sumi is a minority, and she understands that I am being discriminated against, or I have been discriminated against. So she's gonna be able to understand my worldview. I think it gets tricky in the mental health space because of how people view us. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I hear you. Yeah. When I think about, you know, and what I know from the research is that the greatest predictor of client improvement in therapy is the therapeutic relationship. Regardless of the particular kind of therapy you practice, the level of education, even sometimes for the therapist, the client's ability to feel seen, heard, understood, and safe is essential for growth, right? So when I think about how the systems framework allows me to do that, no matter who I work with, part of it is that for many people who do identify as a minority, whether it be racial, ethnic, gender, sexual orientation, right? There is often this feeling that we have to operate in ways that reduce our minoritized characteristics to be palatable in a majority white world. There is often a fear that we can't fully express those aspects of ourselves, for a fear that it won't be understood or worse, that it will be shamed or pathologized. And I think that the therapy space should be one where we acknowledge that neutrality is a myth and you don't have to check parts of yourself at the door. In my experience working with people of all different backgrounds, which is how I've worked throughout my career, being systems-oriented does not mean in practice that every single week we're talking about how you're black or I'm brown. That's not how the actual therapy goes. But we create language to allow us to have those conversations. We signal, like, hey, it's okay to talk about this stuff. You don't have to pretend that's not part of the story for you. I'm gonna approach your identity with curiosity. I want to hear what that's like for you. If you don't, as a client, if there's not much that you're interested in talking about there, I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it. That's not healthy therapeutic uh therapeutic approach. But for me, if a client looks at my profile and says, I want to go to this person because they are a minority and they might understand some aspects of my experience, that actually has value. And that is not the whole story of our therapeutic relationship. But if that helps to engender safety, I'm happy with that. And I will also add that we have a lot of data even now that people of color are not comfortable in therapy. They often don't seek out services for a variety of reasons or they withdraw within the first five sessions. If part of what I can do in creating language that just creates permission for these conversations is help clients feel a little safer sticking around, getting the support they want, then I feel that that's part of my job.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

How does that translate outside of therapy? And the reason why I asked that is because, yes, agree with all of that. Creating safety within the therapeutic space, because I don't want to talk to someone that I don't like or I don't necessarily feel comfortable, especially when I'm sharing the most vulnerable parts of my inner world. Exactly. Right? Yes. And that could show up in in in many different ways. How does that translate outside? Because while you may dismantle the fear in session, how do you teach people to show up as the full selves within living in that identity when you step outside of that therapeutic space that goes beyond just acknowledging the pain and the fear that you have with masking?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. No, I mean such an important question, right? And I think on some level, what you're describing goes to the art and science of psychotherapy. How do we help people feel seen while also empowering them to move forward in the version of the world they actually live in, right? I think that is kind of our task. When I think about the what the research says are like the three drivers of growth in therapy, one of them is a therapeutic relationship, which we talked about. Another one is the idea of a coherent story and experience of meaning, right? How did I get where I got? What are the beats of my narrative? How did I become who I became? That happens through the processing conversations. A third one is something we call corrective emotional experiences, which I know you know what that means, but for your viewers and listeners, it's the idea of having experiences that offer new learning in response to really negative experiences where people have felt maligned, mistreated, misunderstood, et cetera. What happens in response to repeated negative experiences, and I'm not using the word trauma, although that could be an example, um, we develop protective patterns. And those protective patterns may serve us in some contexts, but not in others. Part of what we do in therapy is we offer both a corrective experience through the relationship, right? The experience of being seen, heard, and understood, and support and encouragement to build those experiences outside of therapy. I think of therapy partially because of my maybe my education background is like therapy is a method of learning. Learning has to generalize. It's not effective if it's stopping at the 45 minute mark. So part of how I do that, and I think part of how the systems orientation even informs that to me is like I am encouraging clients to seek out experiences outside the therapy room that can get them closer to their goals. And I'll talk to them about like how are you building, you know, how are you how are you building community? Who are you connecting with? What are you doing to take care of yourself? What are you doing for fun? What are you doing that's enhancing you? And what my frame some of my frameworks allow me to do is have an a very expanded set of what counts in those categories, right? Like there are so many ways that people can be well. And to me, this framework gives me a really expanded way of understanding that. That's very affirming of different backgrounds, different approaches.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

You can definitely tell that you're you're an educator, and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

I'll take that as a compliment.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

That is a compliment because I love educators, hence, hence what we were just talking about prior to jumping on the podcast. But are you able to offer something and maybe I'll use myself or just like my own experiences? And I I think we talked about this on our introductory call during my practicum having clients because you want to get your hours, right? Like I don't give your black, brown, burda, blue, or green. Like, I need to get your own. No, you need your hours. No, no, you gotta get you gotta do it. And one of the things that I've learned through my experience is, and to your point, there are other ethnicities that are willing to go to whoever they feel can help and or support them in their goals, which is not necessarily the same for anyone within those categories, minority-related. And I think what I learned through that experience is sometimes we do place a lot of weight on our identities because of the need to want to feel seen and heard. When I look at some of the the population, and I was like, they don't care. In fact, I've even found myself questioning, like, why the heck did you choose me? Even when we went beyond practicum and I got into the coaching space and I was working with these Fortune 500 companies, and I kept seeing men, white men and women jump in. I'm like, why the heck did they choose me? Yeah. And I I think that for me, the learning from that is some people truly don't care. They want if they are athletics, they just want them a goal, whoever that whoever can help them. Whoever can help. And that's been my experience, right? Or that's at least the interpretation or the story that I've made based off of my own lived experiences. I like what makes us different? What makes us what makes us different in that sense?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, it's a really good question because part of what I think you're getting at is like there's a lived experience, true, right, of being non-white people. But for some people, that lived experience doesn't feel relevant to their ability to make a connection with us. Is that part of what you're getting at? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah. Um I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. The reality is the majority of consumers of psychotherapy are white women. That's just like statistically the case. That's the majority of users of psychotherapy. The fact that I'm willing and able to be culturally affirming and talk about cultural identity does not mean I can only work with clients who are grappling with those issues. In fact, I have like fairly generalized training and I have a couple of areas of expertise. One of my areas of expertise is dealing with burnout and chronic stress. Professionally, I attract a huge range of clients with that. And for some of those people, talking about different identities is valuable, and for some of them, it's not. Part of our job as therapists is to have the versatility and the attunement to our clients to meet them where they're at. And I think when I think of myself as a systems-oriented therapist, this is one framework that I use to conceptualize clients. I think of a systems orientation as a framework. It's not a series of specific interventions. I don't have clients come in on day one and say, please write this essay for me about your racial identity. It's it's not, it doesn't have to be operationalized that way. But I will say, when you make space for those conversations, for the clients who are trying to figure out, can I go there? It's valuable. And for those who don't want to go there, it's an invitation, not a command. When I was teaching undergraduate cross-cultural psychology, I did use to give an assignment about your cultural history. And I gave it to everybody because I do know and believe that everyone has a culture. It is not something only people of racial, ethnic, gender, minorities have. Everyone has a culture. Everyone has a cultural history, everyone has a background. I believe actually there's a great value for all of us in connecting with that. When I gave that assignment, I remember having conversations with my students who identified as white being like, well, I don't know. And we would talk about it. And sometimes like the papers that they turned in were really beautiful, thoughtful ways of understanding like aspects of their family history that they hadn't talked about before. Now, of course, I was the professor, like understanding the histories of their family's immigration in the 1700s or the 1800s and how they got displaced from this community. So they moved to that community. And the one, you know, like if you live in America, you have a history of immigration unless you trace your family to an indigenous Native American tribe. Like you're not most people here are not from here, right? And so you maybe have been taught over the course of centuries of adaptation that to become American, you have to trade that away. But it's actually really powerful to tap into it, to be curious about it. And it was often my white male students that would be like, oh, Professor, I really love that assignment actually more than I thought. Now, of course, as a professor, I'm in charge. I can be like, you have to do this. As a therapist, that's not the deal. I don't ask people or expect people to go there, but I try to create space for them to go there if they want to. They don't have to.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah. So I I'm gonna shift in a second, but because this is this just bothers me, okay, Sumi. I'm just being honest. It go ahead. I'm gonna choose who I want to work with in general. Right. How necessary, if at all, is it for us as minorities to label and define ourselves as having this systemic or systems approach base framework and projecting it out to society, to to to mainstream media with knowing that you have these vulnerable populations. I think that that's where I get stuck at because if we're Saying what we're saying, you already have a vulnerable population, and we also know that not all therapists are created equally, not all prof any professional is not absolutely created equally. So I think that for me it's it's a real fear of taking a vulnerable population and creating more of an oppressive state that looks like healing, but people are not doing, to your point, integrating the skills that they're learning within therapy out into the real world.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. And I suppose what I would say, your first part of the first part of your question is how important is it for us as therapists who identify as minorities to talk about systems? I don't prescribe my approach as something everyone should do. Um I think that to me, the systems framework is not about describing people through the lens of oppression. It's simply acknowledging that systems have shaped how we live in the world.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Because therapists are in the business of making money, uh even though we're in the business of helping and serving, when I market myself. Yeah, you give it as you should, but I'm talking about the marketing of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Aaron Powell Yeah. Yeah. Um I suppose there's room for respectful disagreement on this, but part of what I want to signal to people is that if you are someone who has historically, if you have felt that modern psychotherapy is not for you, that there are aspects of it that you don't connect with, that you worry that components of your experience will be pathologized, misunderstood, or shamed, I am signaling to you that I'm open and I'm curious. Not that I get everything about your culture, because I don't, but that I'm open and curious about having those conversations. And I do think, and I can speak about myself here, I know that there are aspects of my cultural experience that are normative to me that feel contradictory to some of the values of psychotherapy. The reality is modern psychotherapy does have a bias in Western individualistic approaches. And that bias has historically negatively impacted so many communities. We have been complicit in causing harm to many, many communities. And we have, in a lot of ways, not quite been able to connect with huge segments of the population. So when I think about how I market, part of what I want to say is you're welcome here. If you worry that you're gonna go to a therapist and you're gonna tell them that you talk to your mom on the phone every day and they're gonna tell you that you're enmeshed with your mother, I know it's more complex. If you're worried that you're gonna talk about aspects of your spiritual, religious community and I'm and you're worried that a therapist is gonna tell you that that's not healthy for your healing, I'm open. I'm curious. If you're worried that a therapist is gonna be so focused on your independence and they're gonna pathologize your desire to lean on other people, I'm signaling to you, I know there are a lot of ways to be well. I'm interested in working with your values, I'm not trying to point you in one direction. Every field has biases. Ours is no exception. When I talk about the fact that I'm systemic, what I'm saying to you is I know those biases exist. I try to understand them. I am not perfect, but I try to understand them. I'm not, I'm I I am, and I would say I feel like I can speak for a lot of my systems oriented colleagues, in that none of us are viewing people exclusively through the lens of oppression. We're not even viewing people exclusively through the lens of one identity. Everything about you is not defined by your blackness or your womanness or my brownness or my one.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

I do. That's why I have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I appreciate that. But I will tell you again, and maybe this is me, although I I think my experience professionally and personally has taught me this isn't unique to me. I want to work with someone who's open to those parts of me. I don't need to talk exclusively about that in therapy. And I do I think what we know as therapists is that people do want to be seen and understood on their individual merits. That is important. The systems framework tells us that individuals exist in contexts, which exists in contexts. Our job is to thread the needle on that, see the person for who they are based on how they understand themselves and their lived experience, recognize that there are other forces that shaped that. Bring that into the conversation. Both of these things can be true. I'm totally not interested in reducing anyone to just one thing or a stereotype. If I'm doing that, I'm not doing my job right.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Absolutely, you're not. Yeah, absolutely you're not. Well, I would tell you that um for for myself, I'm very comfortable speaking about all of my experiences within any given context. And I don't really care if you're black, brown, white. If it needs to be said, I I'll I'll I'll I'll say it. Uh because my goal is to to grow and just continue to become. So the value that I place on being seen today, of all people, you have to learn to see yourself. And I think that as therapists and professionals, we do a really great job at trying to get people to see themselves and see who they can become. But I also know that given the context and just how people view professionals in general, it does tend to create, or sometimes, not always, depending on the professional again, right? That sense of codependency. Codependency, yeah. Yeah, in in a lot of ways. I want to shift because you made a you you talked about the Western and individualistic traditions. How should that historical context change the way clinicians work with clients today without losing the core elements that actually help people grow?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Yeah, yeah. It's a really good question, right? And I kind of want to start with the second part of this question and then loop back, which we kind of alluded to already. Like when I think about what are the core elements that help people grow in therapy, the therapeutic relationship, the corrective emotional experiences, and the coherent narrative or story, right? If I take those three pieces, which to me are what promote change in therapy and other things too, but I'm focusing on those, those are really compatible to me with a systemic approach because I'm looking at context and history when I build rapport with someone, which is essential. I'm making a space where they can talk about those identities. And if they don't want to, they don't have to, and that's okay. But if we can't make space for the possibility, we can damage rapport. And that is often what happens for a lot of people who don't continue in therapy. They don't feel understood. I just don't ask them to check that at the door. And the way that comes out in therapy is not me being like, would you like to talk about being black, Raquel?

SPEAKER_01 29:35

It's just Well, I I continue to go back to for me, it's it's it's understanding in the historian context is common sense. If you come down and you sit down and say that I had an abusive mom, like I'm gonna work with that context. If you tell me that I've been promoted, you're a black woman and you've been promoted in corporate America and you're finding it very difficult to navigate, I'm not going to place a biases on you, but I'm gonna explore that a little bit more with the understanding that I have as a professional. And I think that strategically you have to know how to use that without that becoming a person's identity. When I challenge this whole system or systemic base, like no one says that you're black, but I do see professionals on social media and they're like, because you are a black and brown person, the world is gonna do this and the world is going to do that, and you're gonna feel this way. And I just think that that to me it is on it's it's it's unethical because our role is to promote agency, and the starting point of it, which is all of the things that you just mentioned, does not necessarily always get us to the end point per se, and not as the gap that I am that you're interested in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can't, to your point, you it's it's very difficult, no matter who I'm working with. Like I have a lot of um clients right now, black women who are dentists. I know what their struggles are. Like, but I don't, to your point, I don't say, hey, I know you're you're part of the 1% uh dentist females, and and and for this reason, like I I let them share before I make a preconceived conception about what their experiences are because Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So I and I suppose I what I would say is that I have this as a question in my mind. Okay. To what extent is your struggle partially related to not seeing people like you represented in your profession? It's a question. It's not something where I'm gonna say this happens because you're a black woman doing this. You offered an example a moment ago of like uh struggles for women in corporate America. And I can consider the example of many women of all different backgrounds that come to me and they talk about how they have imposter syndrome, they worry that they are not good enough and they're gonna be found out. And part of my under part of the way I understand this is that, and this is where systems orientation can be very agency-building and impairing in my mind, is for me, it's like I look at this as like imposter syndrome uses the language of disease to suggest something is wrong with you rather than the possibility that we know that sexism is real, we know that women have been historically prevented from advancing, we know that even as women advance, regardless of your background, there's penalties around parenthood. And is it that you have imposter syndrome or is it that you haven't seen enough people like you do this? And that you're worried that the people that have done it before you are doing things that if you were to do, you would be it would be received differently. Like I'm willing to ask that question, is this part of the story? And if the client says, nope, I I don't think that's it at all. That's more that's data for me. That's something we can talk about. But if I'm not even willing to ask the question, is this a part of it? I think there's a risk of missing something. And I do think you said something earlier that I think was valuable, which is like you were like, I think people that part of this history feels like common sense. And what I've learned in my time in the field is that for so many people, this is not common sense.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Well, for professionals based off of the training. That's what I mean when I say common sense. And I'm not saying all professionals, because we can agree that not all professionals are created equally. But so I mean from a profession, from a professional standpoint that even professionally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

I think people's comfort with having these conversations really varies. And even professionally, most training programs for mental health professionals have one course on cultural differences, cross-cultural psychology, working with diversity. They have one course in two years or in four years of training. Most of those programs, depending on their location, don't have training opportunities that actually expose people to people of a variety of different cultural backgrounds. So the reality is, even if people have some awareness, their competence varies widely in terms of their ability and willingness to have these conversations. And I hear your point around if someone on social media is saying, because you're black ex, for you that's that's a turnoff, right? You're sort of like, oh, this person has made a decision about me without a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

They're still helping, right? Because even to the example that you just gave, I think that I'm more so cautious when you say, like, if uh if you get promoted and historically we've known we've known about sexism and all those things. I think that we don't realize that there's a lot of weight associated with our titles and what we do. For so for someone that's coming in that is dealing with imposter syndrome insecurities, and you add on the other layers of context, it's easy for them to respond to a question like that to me and say yes. Unless you have some strength to where you're like, um, actually not. And what I've seen in this space is most people don't challenge us. In fact, I get all the time where I get for this is kind of off topic, but how do I fire my therapist? And I'm like, you just fire you're like, hey, so you don't want to keep arguing with them. This is more. No, and you're making a really good point, Raquel. If I'm not comfortable letting you go, I'm definitely not comfortable challenging disagreeing in that way or disagreeing with you when I'm already struggling with so many other things. So I think that's what I keep in the back of my mind because that's my thinking.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I I think you're saying something really important here, which is that we have a real impact on our clients and we want to be careful what we say, and we don't want to suggest things that that don't resonate with them. And it's a little bit more than that.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

So you gotta ask the question to some degree.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It's that's the art and science of the therapy. And it's art and science. That's why it's art and science. And and sometimes we will misstep. Yes. It's inevitable, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

And so I suppose where I've landed there is that I would rather inquire and have someone and and try to navigate if it's a disagreement or even a rupture. I'm confident in my ability to navigate that. But I know from working with people from all over the world and from being, you know, a first-generation American who has some of my own lived experience in therapy, I think more harm is caused by never asking than by taking the risk of asking. That is where I've landed there.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

I can receive that. I can receive that. But from I'm so biased, okay? And I and I and I'm I'm and I'm aware of it. I can receive that from you and just basically I can receive that just based off how you how you even engage with me, right? Like it it wasn't an attack on what I was saying. It actually displayed your skills as a professional within this space. And that's what caught my attention. I was like, well, it's nice to see people practice what they preach, in essence, because we can become so attached to our worldviews, including myself, right? Like I'm very attached to what we're talking about right now, but not so attached to where I'm like, I won't talk to Sumi about it.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah. I'm attached too, though, man. I mean, I also I practice this way because I believe it has value no matter your background. I also believe enough in the process of psychotherapy to recognize that my imperfection can be part of the relational, the process of relational growth. I cannot have an authentic relationship with a client if I pressure myself to say the perfect thing all the time. If I'm constantly worrying, oh, are they gonna be upset? Are they gonna like this? Are they gonna be offended? Are they gonna How can I show up as myself? And showing up as myself is essential to building a real relationship, which is essential to change.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah, yeah. I I get that from you.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

And I will, and I will even say that not quite that way, but I might be like, look, I'm gonna take a swing. I could miss. Please tell me if I'm missing here. What do you think of this? Maybe I'm way off base, but I will say that.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

That's what I would say. Asking for permission is important. It's almost like I remember when I first ever tried therapy because I was anti-therapy years ago before I had gotten into this space, and I remember my therapist. She was, I think she was Mexican American, and she was like, that must have been very difficult for you to lose your mom to an overdose. And I was like, Well, not that it wasn't difficult, but I'm not living in that space anymore. In fact, here's where I am. Yeah. However, I've always had these strengths where I'm pretty confident and could speak for myself. I was like, You could disagree with her. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing that since a kid. I've been meant to stay in a child's place and and all of the things. Like those were the rules that were placed on on me, and in a lot of ways, you can learn to to shrink. So for me, I was always challenging that. But it's it to your point, it's I think to some degree we have to ask for permission, but I don't think that we well, yeah, we have to ask for permission for people to grow as well, which leads me to my next question. What are the rules of growth, in your opinion? And are there universal elements of growth that apply regardless of someone's background or identity?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yes. These are my these are Dr. Sumi's roles of growth. These are my rules. We should work to find meaning, connection, and joy. And there are many different ways we can do this. Psychotherapy is one method of finding meaning. It is not the only method. Connection. We are by nature wired to attach. We are relational people. We vary to the degree that we some people are more introverted, some people are more extroverting, nothing wrong with that. But we do need people. And I tune into this with my clients. Where are your points of connection? Who do you have besides me? Joy, the most underrated skill and practice that I want people to develop. I will talk to clients and I'm careful about this. If someone comes in and is like, I'm terribly depressed, I'm not like, how can we create joy? I I but I have in my mind, where are spaces where there's joy, where there's lightness, where there's fun. I will talk to people about scheduling fun. I'll be like, what are you gonna do for fun this week? What's fun for you? And it doesn't have to be a big thing. Like it maybe it's like I'm gonna watch an episode of my favorite show, even though I've seen it five times. That's fun for me. But we must create joy. And I don't say that in a cheesy, toxic positivity way. But part of what growth depends on is your favorite word, our capacity to hold many feelings simultaneously. And when we experience joy, we remind our systems that joy is possible. This does not erase or eradicate negative feelings or negative experiences, but it creates that learning pathway that these can coexist. Thank you for that. So you're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

You've already answered a lot of my questions, but I want to go back to them just kind of like as a summary, right? Let's do it. Let's hit the high points. All right, let's hit the high points. That's what I wanted to do. So I started with on social media, there's a lot of messaging focusing, not a lot, that's uh that's a little extreme. There are messages focusing on validating systemic challenges. What does a responsible version of that look like?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

One that supports people without keeping them stuck.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

For me, talking about systems is important. Most of us who do systems work are not just talking about systems and ending it there on social media. Look, we could have a dissertation about this. I won't do that. You know, I'm a talker, but I'm trying to rein it in. But what I'll say is I think the responsible thing for all of us to do who are professionals showing up on social media are two things. One, be transparent about what we're doing on social media. Two, present a balanced set of ideas that don't exclusively focus on validation. Validation is the beginning. We all know that that is an essential part of therapy. It is not the only part of therapy. Validation can exist alongside growth, change, and other aspects of connection to the world. I like accounts where you see a bit of everything, but here's the rub. The algorithm rewards, same, same, same, same, same, same, same. The more balance and difference you have, it's a little trickier to get your message out to people. This is an inherent tension we're working with. But I think I would I I love accounts where I see a I get a general sense of how you look at things, but I also see you talking about ways that offer hope, offer options, offer ideas, sometimes strategies, sometimes suggestions. I know that most of us who do this work, I have belief that most of us who do this work are not interested in keeping clients stuck. How we communicate that on social media asks us to invite followers not purely through agreement, but also through demonstrating that we can support them to getting closer to their goals. Okay. Next one.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

That was a good thing. You're like, you talk too much, girl. No, I I I really there was a lot of substance and depth in that response. So so thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Where do you see systems-based thinking being most helpful and where do you think it can go too far or become limiting?

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Sure. I think systems-based thinking gives us an expansive way of understanding a client's experience of living in the world. I think that's helpful no matter who your client is. I think that any framework is limiting if it's your only framework. And I think that all of us, to be good at our jobs, we have to be versatile. We have to be able to look at things in different ways. We have to be responsive to the feedback our clients give us. And the feedback is not always them saying, Oh, I disagree. It might be tone of voice, body language, some subtle shifts. That's part of our job too. We track the bodily cues. So I think that any framework cannot be our only framework. And there are clients for whom I think about systems, but it's not the primary lens through which I'm conceptualizing them. There are other clients through whom that's really helpful. It helps them unstick. My job is to figure out who's who there.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

If you could critique me, this is a question that was not shared. Critique you? Yes. As an educator and as a as an educator, and as a therapist, too, a licensed therapist, what feedback would you give me based off of what you see on my social media?

SPEAKER_00 46:03

I will couch this in saying, I feel like we're friendly. And I I want to be I don't actually want I did not come into this conversation with a plan to critique you.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

I know constructive critique critique.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

The only constructive critique I would offer is in your own words, you sort of reminded us all that the things that we say as licensed professionals have weight and they matter. When I give comments or I respond to something on your posts, it's when I see content that feels like it skirts into the anti-therapy space. And that isn't because we shouldn't we should absolutely be critical of the field. As a cross-culturalist, part of the seeds that were planted in me and my interest in this field is an awareness that I don't think it works equally for everyone. We should be critical. I want to be really thoughtful as therapists when we show up on social media, all of us, that we are not building our online presence around the denigration of any parts of the field. I try not to say, and when I see content like this, not just yours, I see content all the time. That's like, I would never go to a therapist who does X because. Or like there was a trend going around was like, what's the most unhinged thing your therapist ever did? It infuriated me. I was like, what are you doing? You're just inviting people to sh crab on their therapists online? Or when when people say, you know, you know, here's why I'm a therapist who hates therapy, follow me for more. Whenever I see things like that, I feel like it's irresponsible because part of why we're showing up online is actually to introduce accurate information into a space that is full of nonsense and garbage. And we're trying to show up in the places where people are. That doesn't mean we can't be critical of the field. But if I go back to your original question, which I'm not trying to dodge, it's that I want you to just think about when you say therapy does that, therapists do this, therapists do that, therapists do that. Because I know from the little that I know you that you're also inviting discussion and you're speaking from your experience and your observations. I think that people who are not thinking carefully and are just scrolling through could just receive that as like this why therapy, this is why I would never go to therapy. This is why therapy is bad. That would be my only critique. And I yeah, no, I I I almost seems like I don't wanna I don't wanna dump on you, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

No, um I think that if I'm gonna continue to grow as a professional, uh I mean I don't take advice from everybody, okay? So I asked for a reason, and it's not lost on me that people don't know where I stand, especially because I'm also a certified coach. In fact, I got a comment yesterday. Someone drops and says, You're the reason why my husband won't go to therapy and heal. Respectfully, your husband's making a choice. But apparently this person's husband enjoys right, don't put that on me. But I can also see how it would be received that way. So I I do receive that, and I I I'll tell you why I really receive it because I don't know if you're aware of all of the conversations right now around why being licensed as a professional matters. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Well, you know, I don't do threads because it would make me crazy, but I am a little bit of a hair. I would I would lose my mind. But I like hair in the tea from other people, but I cannot be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Well, but yeah. What I would say about what's happening, I think that what people are upset about is the lack of transparency about a person's credentials. I don't really want to talk about that person per se. There's enough people talking about it. But I think that the other thing that we have to if you take why I went viral, right? It it tells me that people are hungry for something else. It doesn't mean that I am 100% right or I I I've figured it out, but I think that people's needs are evolving and where is the balance? So sometimes my content will come across as anti-therapy, but I'm not anti-therapy. I know. You're a thought. I am acknowledging that the field is evolving and changing in a lot of ways. In terms of we won't be able to say, oh, well, just go talk to a licensed therapist when you have a bunch of coaches that are popping up and people feel like they're helping them with their mental health. Because to your point, yeah, we're relational, it's being able to find community. Community comes in a lot of different aspects. When I think about why I chose speaker, that was my introduction into community and learning to really be vulnerable and speak my truth. Really? Yes, it really was. And so my takeaway from therapy was you have to learn to create community outside of this. If you're able to come in here, still a stranger and tell them your business, can you get comfortable with talking to your husband at home? Can you get comfortable with telling your family members how you truly feel? Because it has to translate outside. So that was actually my takeaway from therapy. Generalized learning. Yes. I think that the field is evolving, not that it's changing, but people are wanting to understand a little bit more. And that's what I'm challenging more than anything, because we have a lot of skills that are even could be utilized within the corporate spaces, to be to be honest. And I would agree. Yeah. I think that these conversations around licensing, it has made a lot of people feel threatened because they have put in a lot of work, a lot of time and hours to get to this point. So when you see someone with popularity or fame or that does not have the credentials, it's easy to feel, I would say, threatened by it, dismissed by it, because what's happening? And to my point, I think that things are changing. So we have to get very clear about how we support people, what mental health is, what it is not, because there is a lot of confusion. I mean, yeah. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

No, it is. It's conf it's like hard out here in these streets. Like it's there's so much. And it is hard for clients who often, when they decide they want to reach out to someone, they feel vulnerable, there's something going on with them, they want support. It's difficult to work through the alphabet soup of degrees and backgrounds and trainings. It's for sure confusing. Um, and because I'm a systems person, I have to work this in. That part of the reaction to me to the the sense of feeling threatened by the assertion that licensure is not so important is we're also living in a in a sociopolitical context where expertise is being devalued and diminished, right? The idea is like, don't listen to your doctor, do whatever you want. You know, like don't the idea is like expertise doesn't matter. And I think that that overall feels scary because we'd like to believe that with a level of training, experidated training experience, and education, that you have something to offer us. And the social media space is full of people who are talking about mental health who have zero expertise. And they have one idea that someone likes and responds to, and they catch fire with that idea. And that idea could be resonating. And again, if I look at it as in a broader systemic way, there are tremendous barriers for people getting support. I totally understand why they're following whoever they're following on social media. I totally understand why people are like, I would, I'm gonna talk to chat because I can't find or afford a therapist. I don't see these things as ultimately helping people, but I also am not faulting a community who needs support and is encountering barriers everywhere. And this is part of why I feel that when we show up in these spaces, we'll never get it all the way right. The spaces are not designed for nuance and complexity. And the work that we do resides in nuance and complexity. So we do our best, we have to give each other grace, we try to be balanced, and we try to show our potential clients who we are so they can feel comfortable with us. We try to offer some education to a general population that's saturated with the misinformation, and maybe we have a little fun.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Love that. Love that. Where can people find you? On social media or where do you practice? Are you still taking clients?

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yes, yes, yes. You can find me on social media at Dr. Sumi PhD, D R S U M I Ph D. You can find me on my website, www.drsumiphd.com. I am a licensed psychologist in the state of New York. I'm actually trying to expand my licensure, but right now I'm in New York. I have an in-person office in Brooklyn, but I see a lot of clients virtually. So if you are anywhere in the New York area, anywhere in New York State, you're interested in working with me, you can find me there. And I have just a simple newsletter I put out every two weeks. It's called Downshifting. And I really like to focus in that on helping people to unwind hustle culture and think about what actually feels aligned with them. Um and anyone can subscribe, anyone can follow me and reach out if you're in New York, and I can support you. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was a great chat.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

I highly encourage you all to subscribe to her newsletter, follow her on social media, and yeah, thank you so much. I feel very connected. All right, you all, thank you so much for listening to Capacity Combos. Until next time. This conversation calls you to pause or reflect on how you're showing up in your own life. That's intentional. Capacity is revealed in the moments we choose engagement over retreat. Thank you so much for spending time with us. I'm Raquel Hopkins and this is Capacity Combos. If you're looking to continue to engage with me, I would encourage you to follow me on Instagram. You can search me by Raquel the Capacity Expert. It's Raquel underscore the underscore capacity underscore expert. Until next time.