CapacityConvos

Radical Obedience in a Chaotic World | Brenda Palmer on Divine 9, Idolatry, and Waiting on God

• RaQuel Hopkins • Episode 6

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Episode 6 features Brenda in a powerful conversation on faith, obedience, identity, and the tension between spiritual surrender and modern mental health culture.

Brenda shares the heart behind her book The Journey of Yes, framing life as a continuous decision to say yes to God. She reflects on her faith journey beginning at a young age, navigating seasons of obedience, distance, and return, and what it has meant to trust God through uncertainty and transition.

From there, we explore the balance between God and therapy, the subtle ways idolatry shows up in everyday life, and the challenge of letting go of identities, roles, and systems that compete with full surrender. This episode invites a deeper level of self awareness, discipline, and submission especially in seasons that feel unclear or uncomfortable.

This conversation challenges the idea that anything outside of God can define or sustain you. It calls you into alignment, ownership, and obedience even when it means releasing what once felt secure.

What we cover:

• Saying yes to God and the foundation of The Journey of Yes
• Brenda’s faith journey through seasons of obedience, distance, and return
• God and therapy and understanding both as tools, not saviors
• The danger of idolizing mental health professionals and avoiding responsibility
• Idolatry in everyday life including food, identity, and external roles
• Letting go of coping mechanisms formed in difficult seasons
• The Divine Nine, legacy, and questioning deeper spiritual roots
• Church as a foundation for identity, community, and accountability
• Navigating seasons of waiting, stillness, and transition
• Releasing past identities and submitting to what God is doing now

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SPEAKER_01

You don't introduce people to church, you introduce them to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, yeah, because people have so much history with church. Today, I got Brenda, y'all. I'm so excited to talk today about her book. You can idolize literally anything. Anything. Anything. Maybe we idolize what we did a little bit. In order to truly have freedom, you have to have responsibility.

SPEAKER_01

I met Jesus for real, and I don't care what color he is.

SPEAKER_00

God is always asking you the same question: will I be enough for you? Welcome to Capacity Combos. I'm Raquel Hopkins, and this is a space for thoughtful conversations about who we become when life asks more of us. Here we talk with people whose lives and work reflect real capacity, how they stayed engaged, made hard decisions, and grew without shrinking in the face of challenge. This is where we explore what life demanded, and the moment you realize I can hold more than I thought. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Capacity Combos. I am Raquel Hopkins, and today I got Brenda, y'all. I got Brenda. Pastor Brenda. Here you go. Pastor, it's Pastor Brenda. It's not. Yes, it is. She my pastor. Well, I'm so excited to talk to Brenda. I met Brenda on social media and we just connected. I was not open to saying that I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ. And she saw straight through me in a lot of ways. So I'm so excited to talk to her today about her book, The Journey of Yes, The Everyday Adventure of Radical Obedience.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome, Brenda. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for coming like last minute. For you? Always. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So what do you want me to refer to you as? Brenda. Why you don't like pastors? Because I'm not a pastor.

SPEAKER_01

Do you need like credentials or something? Do you need to know? I'm just Brenda. Not just Brenda, but I don't have a title.

SPEAKER_00

Why? You just don't. No, you just don't really care. That's right. You don't need it. All right. This was a good book. Come on. And I've highlighted a lot of stuff. So what I'm gonna do is I want to start with it was a good book because a lot of it resonated with me personally. So there's a section in here where I highlighted it says, we quickly realized that life is not a single act of obedience. It is a series of choices, each requiring us to say yes to God in fresh and profound ways. I wanted to start there. Because like constantly having to say yes can feel exhausting. And I know you share your personal story in there. One of the things that has stood out to me was you talking about, and your parents, they have their own church. They did when I was growing up. And you decided to part ways and start visiting other places. And it's almost like your journey started there. Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think I I joined another church and then came back and was like, yeah, yeah, I joined another church. Um, I think I just, I don't know. I feel like since I was a kid, I always had this belief, I guess, in God. And so I think it it did start there. It was just kind of like, I think even before that moment, I was like eight, and I was going to like a Baptist church. And at eight, I was like, this ain't enough. And so my godmom would visit this other church. So she was singing a choir, and then we would go to this other church, and I love that church. Like, I don't know, the teaching just was resonating with me even at eight. And I remember telling my mom, like, you should come visit. And when my mom came to visit, I was like, We join it today. And she's like, What? You pulled your you pulled your mama. I did. I was like, she was like, Yo daddy's gonna kill us. I was like, Well, we gotta figure it out. But today, either you going with me or I'm going by myself. Um, and eventually, like my mom did join the church that day, and then my dad ended up leaving that other church after getting like some words, like, bruh, it's over with for this place. And so I don't know. I think I just always had this sensing that like the Lord would speak, and I just would kind of just jump in on it. Um, and then when I was 18, I made the same decision. Like, I went to, I had stopped kind of going to church. I was working in retail and I would lie and be like, I can't go today because I gotta go to work. Yeah. And then I went to church. Same god mom. I went to a different church with her, and that day I was like, I like this place.

SPEAKER_00

And I just joined. When you say you like places, you like teachings, like people that are actually teaching. Because today I feel like there's a lot of motivational scenes that like motivate you in the moment, but to actually get to know God and like his word.

SPEAKER_01

No, really important for me. Like, I will suffer through bad worship if the word is good. Really? Yeah, some people can't do that. It's like Brenda, the singing is terrible. I I did it. I did it. I did it, didn't he? Yeah, I did. I did. Because I needed to learn. Yeah, sometimes it's like it's unfortunate, but it's very rare that you find both and like they killing it in worship, and the word is solid. Those are those are rare places. But I'm like, I'll I'll worship on my way to church. And then I as long as the word is good and I'm walking away feeling challenged um and I'm growing, it's really important for me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. How do you know when you're growing? Like from someone's teachings.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's the challenge, right? I I think especially being a communicator of the gospel, it could be hard to sit under stuff. Because you like, where did you get that from? And like, I think the first thing is like, is this message pointing to Jesus? And then is it challenging me in a way that's highlighting areas that I'm not aligned with Jesus? I think is really huge for me. Or if somebody like the church I currently attend, I remember the first time I went there, the pastor preached Genesis 1, 1 through 3. And it's like, in the beginning, it's like, okay. No, I was mind blown at the revelation he pulled out of that that tied it into our current state and how like the Lord's just creating out of chaos and like what we're currently living through right now, and how it's like the perfect time for God to move. And I walked away, like wanting to dive into my word more and not just feeling like, okay, be back next week. Like you want to, you need to know for yourself. I wanted, I wanted to. I'm like, oh, I need to read this again and like study this again. So I think when I leave going like that, and each week I'm going, man, I never saw that scripture like that. Or then that spoke to me in a way that, like, okay, this is an area I need to change. I need to grow in. What was it? I want to know too.

SPEAKER_00

What was the revelation late to this scripture?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, so it was Genesis 1, 1 through 3. And he preached I don't know. Oh, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It's the beginning, but say it all, okay? I don't know it all. Oh, you don't know how you gonna say I don't know. That's not a prerequisite that I memorize scripture. Like, that's crazy. I got the body, you want me to read it? Just in Chicago. No I'm saying, like, so it's it talks about like God separating the heavens and the earth, and it's like the earth was without form and void. And then, like, and so basically most people would think, like, oh, nothing existed. It's like, no, it was just chaotic. And so, with the Lord speaking, he brought like order to chaos and then separated things and put things in their proper place. And but just the way in which he taught it, it was called out of the darkness. And he like aligned the amount of years it's been since the creation to Jesus to now is the same amount of time, which means we're in a moment where God's about to set order to chaos. It's just like the revelation he was pulling out of it was just nothing I heard, and it's the first three verses of the Bible. So it's like, oh, okay, we heard this. Right, right. But no, he was but that comes from not just reading scripture, like I can tell when a person who's preaching has an actual relationship with the Lord. That makes a difference.

SPEAKER_00

You can well communicate people just in any profession. For sure. Like profession, at least I think. Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's how I knew you were a believer, even though you was trying to hide it. I just don't like the labels.

SPEAKER_01

But you're trying to give me one.

SPEAKER_00

Right. That's right. That's right. That's right. No, no, I get it. I get it. That's right. Well, why let me I'll tell you why I didn't like the label. Because I needed to make sure that I was clear. Because I've pulled away from the church, the teachings, and all those things. And when I'm talking about the mental health stuff, I didn't want to be the person that was using the Bible with so many people now seeking support with their mental health. For sure. And be like, okay, well, let me give you scripture too. Or I it just for me, it was important to figure out like how do I embody this. And I think that that's what a lot of people ended up catching in my messaging. Because I wasn't all the way clear for two different reasons. Like, are you back on this side or are you just doing it now because this is what people are saying that you you should you should do. That's fair. I get what you're saying, though, bringing uh order to today, because I think that a lot of people don't know how to handle the uncertainty that we see today, whether it's from a political standpoint, just everything that's happening in the world. And I think that when you are a believer, you do have to, of course, trust in something greater than yourself. But that self-trust, like, I'm gonna be okay regardless. Yeah. Like, regardless. I want to go back because I'm telling you where my mind was going. And thinking about this mental the mental health conversations and and as it relates to God, you know, a lot of people will say that you can't just pray like your pain and and those things away. I kind of feel like the messaging has changed so much today that prayer is not enough. God is not enough. And therapy and mental health professionals have become like the tool and or the savior. And I think that that is wild. I don't know if people see it that way, but that is how I see it because I'm just a God, I'm just a facilitator. Like I didn't save you, I may have helped you, but I've helped you with the gifts that God have given, have given me. So I'm curious to know your thoughts. And I think we also need to make it clear that prayer is really enough. God really is enough. Because the Bible, throughout the Bible, it tells us that people were always in community. And that's what therapy represents. Like therapy represents being in community with a professional. So go ahead, Pastor.

SPEAKER_01

It's so crazy. You can't help yourself. Nah, I agree with that. I think, I think our innate response is worship. We were created to do that. As humans, that's just what we do. So the moment I experience something that alters or shifts my life, my innate response is to worship. So if I go to therapy and I experience a change, immediately my brain goes, This person saved my life. Right. And so I think as the people who've been entrusted to steward that, we always have to be the ones to redirect and go, uh-uh, it wasn't me. It wasn't. It wasn't me. It was like, and we see that throughout scripture. Like I think about the first disciples, they were like, the man at the gate, I think it's in Acts one or maybe two or three, and he was like bound for 40 years. And then Peter, James, and John just walk up to him and like, we don't got no money, but we'll give you what we have. And he gets healed. He's a layman. He starts walking. And then people are amazed. And they're like, oh my God, these are the people who healed the layman. They're like, no, no, no. We are just like y'all. Right. Remember, like the man y'all put on the cross, Jesus? Because of him, we're able to do this, right? And so I think that there's like part of it is just our nature. It was what we were created to do. But as people who have influence, it's our job to steward and go, no, no, no. I'm only a conduit of what God's actually doing. That's it. And then also give them tools to be able to access him for themselves. I feel like we are pathways or like here's a light to get you to the actual source. And so I think it's nothing wrong with that. But I do think because there's such a disdain for religion, it's like we've completely eliminated the source of the thing that we're actually like resourcing it. And they didn't got real good with like trying to trick you with it too.

SPEAKER_00

For sure. Yeah, like, like I just saw Dion Sanders say, when you get ready to say something, but you can say thank you, Loki.

unknown

Right?

SPEAKER_00

You got the whole thing. When God he convicts you and said, Don't you say that? You said thank you, Lord. That's what I say. I'm gonna find a better way to say it though. Within our community, there's this notion that mental health professionals can support andor alleviate pain that is associated with not feeling liberated. And I only know one person that can truly liberate you. Come on. Like, I can't offer you that. I can support you in developing your capacity so that you can start working towards liberation, peace, freedom, whatever that looks like. But until you truly take radical responsibility for your life, I don't know how much closer you're gonna get to liberation and or freedom.

SPEAKER_01

No, you won't. You're just gonna be more bound. It'll just be bound by a different thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And that's what I was telling you before. One of the things, like, and when I go throughout your content, I feel like, and I may, I may have made this up, but there's a theme around idolatry. Like you talk about it a lot. And I and I'm gonna ask you this honest question because I really want to understand the D9 thing. Oh my God. I do! Not that I want it. No, no, no. For those of you that don't know what D9 is, it is sorority, fraternity organizations. And I've just always thought that what it represented was legacy, sisterhood, community support. And just there's a lot of history in it. But Brenda decided that she ain't wanna be no more. She ain't wanna be no, what was you, AKA? Ooh, no. I was a Delta. Okay, I can see it. She didn't want to be a Delta anymore. And I didn't want to be a Delta no more. All right, well, okay. Well, correct me, Pastor Brenda.

SPEAKER_01

Pastor Brenda is crazy.

SPEAKER_00

You know, okay, but what's your question? Why? Like, what yeah, I want and this is gonna sound so disrespectful. No, because I know that you did it because it right, right. Okay, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. But is it that deep? It is. I knew that's what you was about to say. I do, I really want to know, like, is it like what makes it so deep? Because in my mind, like I said, it that's all it represents, is legacy, history, sisterhood.

SPEAKER_01

Like what I think I think that's what it represents on the surface, right? But then when we start, the whole idea of deception is that something appears to be something that it not that it is not actually, right? So on the surface level, it's a sisterhood, a brotherhood, it's an organization, it represents legacy. We do history, you know what I'm saying, like community service, you know. Um, we build relationships and bonds. That's the surface level, right? But then there is this behind the scenes process that nobody gets to know about um unless you are a part of it, which I mean now everybody knows about it, but there used to be a secrecy to it that you didn't know what you were getting into until you were in it, right? And so there are these things that are called rituals, which ritual wouldn't necessarily be a bad or negative turn, right? But there is our there are rituals that you partake in, but then there is a a mascot, if you will. I think that's the best way I could call it. Um, and it is a Greek god, it is literally a Greek god. Like, it's not like I'm not like this is a no, it's a Greek god. And in the sorority that I was a part of, that Greek goddess is has a Roman name, which is in scripture that taught, like it literally used to be a god that they served in scripture. So if I just left it at that, it's like, well, why would I be taking an oath to a Roman God that exists in scripture that goes against God? So I could just leave it there and walk away from the conversation and be like, this just doesn't make sense to me, right? But each organization has a Greek God that is attached to it. So when you are taking an oath, on the surface, you feel like I'm just making a commitment to this organization. But then why is there a Greek God attached to it? And throughout my process, the Greek God is a uh is um included. Like, say your founders and look to the east, and they're the entire group of people that bring you in are called the Minerva Circle, which is connected to the Greek God. So some of this stuff is not just it's not just normal, like it's not a normal thing. So the reality is, okay, I unknowingly have bowed to an idol. And because it's so infused in our culture, it feels like, nah, this just is this is what we do. And I think it's be it's infused within the organization's culture. Because if you start going back, it's like, okay, where did the divine nine come from? Okay, like uh Masons and Eastern Stars are like the father and mother of divine nines. Okay, where did they come from? They came from the boulet, which was directly connected to another organization. You keep going, it's connected to Lucifarianism, which is Satan worship. So if we just keep tracing back where all of this stuff has been passed through, it is deeper than just, oh, I joined an organization on my college campus.

SPEAKER_00

So you want to start. Can we start an organization then and then we will bow down to what?

SPEAKER_01

Why do we gotta start an organization? No, but I'm saying, like, if you start like paying attention, just like, well, I joined it because I wanted sisterhood and brotherhood. So you want to communicate. Most people do do it. And most, but most of the things that it offers you are in direct connection to things that you should be finding in your local church. So now it kind of also feels like a direct attack to draw you away from where you should be getting those things. You do community service, okay? You do outreach at a church. When you do all of these things, you do them in the name of the organization. So for those, and then people are, I know the arguments like, oh, it's founded on Christian principles. Now the organizations are like, that don't mean it's Christian. Well, thank you for that, because that was the point. But they use that to draw us in, like, oh, it's founded on Christian principles. So are cults. True. It's just moral high, what you would consider moral high ground, but anything could be founded on that. So I think for me, if I went to the very surface level of the conversation, is does this edify God? No, it doesn't. So, as a person who's a follower of Jesus, should only be involved in things that edify God. And that's a list of other things. It ain't just that. Right.

SPEAKER_00

I saw you talk about gluttony on your video the other day. That was a good one, by the way. I actually I resonate with that because when I feel overwhelmed. Well, you're in you in Texas now, too. So my God. And gained a whole person. Okay. You look good.

SPEAKER_01

Uh huh. You hadn't it? Yeah. Oh, okay. You know, it's yeah, that's been a that's been a thing. But I'm I'm working on my next book. It's gonna be on idolatry.

SPEAKER_00

So it's funny that I literally just said that like there is a thing. It is a thing. And that's why I like talking to you because you can idolize literally anything. Anything. Anything. Anything. The the guy that I had on the podcast yesterday, he's so solid. But he he he talks about Martin Luther King. I won't get into it because I'm not a historian. I don't know. But basically, he reveals that Martin Luther King wasn't a Christian.

SPEAKER_01

And a lot of people have been saying that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they yeah. We idolize a lot of a lot of things in in in general. And I think that there's a lot to be said about that when your walk with God is very important to you. We idolize pain, we idolize our roles, we idolize labels, like literally, no, everything you can idolize. So I was gonna ask you, what is idolatry?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I think at the the simplest place is when I put something in the place that God should be in.

SPEAKER_00

But how how do you even know when you're doing it? Because in my world as a mental health professional, is when you start to over-identify with anything. And it becomes, it takes shape, it takes center of your identity.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I think it I think that's the extreme. I think it happens gradually. Okay. So I think like, so I'll use food as an example because that was sending me. Um, and I didn't realize it until I realized it. Because it's like I was overwhelmed and really anxious about things, but I think I have taught myself how to cope internally. Yeah. And so I didn't realize that I would just have this, like, I didn't know what it looked like until I recently went home and my mom was doing it. And I was like, girl, you are not hungry. And she just, but her brother had died. Her brother died. One of my brothers got arrested for attempted murder. My sister struggles with uh mental health issues. Another one of my brothers had been arrested. It was all like back to back to back to back to back. And my mom doesn't cry. And so I'm watching her eat her life away. Just cookies. Just she's like, I'm hungry. She'll eat 15 minutes later, like, man, I am hungry. And I'm like, you are not hungry. We just had pizza. Now you want cookies. Now you want ice cream. Now you want to popcorn. It's just, I need a snack. I need a, but it's like any moment you sit and still for too long, it's like it's an escape. Because eating is something that we can control. It makes it feel good. It relieves the moment. It relieves the moment, right? So it's like I realized, and I it was only a month after because I had gained so much weight. Like the clothes I moved with, I couldn't fit them. And I'm like, you've been eating. Eating. And so my mama was like, You all right? The nerve of her. Then it got her the next month. And I'm like, nah, I think I was anxious, but I didn't know. I just was eating. Cause in my brain, it's like this is this is something I have control over. It's like if I feel something, then I go satisfy it. Right. And I think like what I realized is I was never inviting God into that. I was using food to cope with my emotions instead of taking them to the Lord in prayer or like reading my Bible. So I think once I had an awareness of it, I'm like, okay, I'm going to try something different. And I would read a scripture about anxiety, and it was like I would feel at least calm enough to settle that I didn't have to go eat a snack.

SPEAKER_00

You know, the other thing with when you talk about coping, there's something to be said about feeling the discomfort of waiting for answers to.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, for sure. Because that's what it was. It was like I knew I was supposed to move. I had already given my notice and I kept getting denied. So in my brain, I'm like, I'm finna be homeless. And it's like, but also the Lord isn't saying anything. But I think I hadn't even sat long enough to process that that was even happening.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it was like for weeks, I would just come home, sit on the couch. I couldn't pack, I couldn't do anything. I just was sitting, eating, sleeping.

SPEAKER_00

I I resonate with that so much, especially during this time of my life, because you know, when I went viral and all the opportunities are presenting themselves, first thing people say is, you need to quit your job. You need to quit your nine to five. And there are days where I'm tired, I'm exhausted because I'm juggling a lot, but I still don't feel like God is saying move. To me, it would be idolizing how I went viral. Now you have all of this versus figuring out, like, is I know for sure I didn't put myself here. Like I really, really know for sure I didn't put myself here. And because I'm I'm hard-headed, like I know how to move. She makes some things happen. It's really important for me that I hear like God tell me when to move. And sometimes when you feel overwhelmed or you're juggling a lot, it's like, okay, maybe is this time to move? But the waiting season for me is can you still be kind to your husband when you're when you're overwhelmed? Can you still be kind to your children when you're over overwhelmed? Can you still show up in this job? It's the discipline. And I would say that's not something that I've always had. And because I always, I I haven't always had discipline, it's so important to me that I hear God. And I will be honest, there's some days where it's fear because I don't want to just be an entrepreneur, just to be an entrepreneur. So there are different things that I've done. Like I'm looking at maybe going back to school. I love learning, like going back forward to a doctoral program. But I'm like, they told me they would let me know something six weeks ago. We like in week nine. Yeah. But it's that waiting. Yeah. Because I want confirmation to say, like, you're supposed to go into this direction or a justification to say it is time for you to quit your nine to five, but you just don't know. And I go back to when I quit my job in 2022. It wasn't that complicated. It was just you felt this sense of peace that it was time to go. But it came with grief, it came with tears. Even though you knew it was the decision that needed to be made, it's that waiting. Yeah. Because even with that, I stayed in that job for 10 years and I kept looking for relief. I kept looking for relief. And it wasn't until I finally settled in the discomfort of it all that God started ordering my steps.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you preaching to me. Because I feel like that's where I'm at now. It's like it's hard. And I am grieving. I know moving to Dallas is what I was supposed to do, but it's so uncomfortable because I feel like I'm not doing nothing. And so I was just saying, like, it's the waiting. Like there's a difference when you get to wait and and do, right? Yeah. It's like when I get to wait and still do the last thing or do something where you feel like you know where the vision is taking you. But it's a different kind of waiting when what you came out of is gone and what you're gonna go into has not revealed itself. It's just you just gotta wait. And that sitting still has ruined me over the last few weeks.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, I don't, I don't know what this is. It brings me to my next highlight in your book. The decision to follow God's leading usually requires you to agree to something you can't see. That is the hard part. Most times there is no context for what you are being asked to do. And I for real, like, want to know why you make me go viral. Like, I mean, besides like more visibility, but like what is the thing that you want me to do? And I get additional clarity every day, but you know, you want all the clarity.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I don't. And and it just doesn't work. And I think it's even beyond what you do. I think it's because he trusts you. You know, like and today. Today overall.

SPEAKER_00

No, he trusts me today. I I feel it. I feel it. Because I'll I I really steward what he exactly he he gives me today, and I haven't always been that. That's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_01

But then you could look back, you go, okay, this happened because the Lord trusts me. You steward differently when you know that's what it's about. You do right when it's like it's even about being famous, whatever that means in this time. Right. You know, like, or making money or whatever is driving most people. It's like, nah, it's because the Lord trusts me. So it keeps you in it when you want to walk away. Because you realize, like you said earlier, I ain't put myself here. Which means there's a bigger purpose than me.

SPEAKER_00

And I know that because there have been seasons in the past, and I I think that one of the ways to truly grow is you have to be really honest with yourself. Very much. All my prior seasons, I was not crediting God. I'm like, I'm not sure. I did, I did this, I did that. And it was probably the most unpeaceful time of my life. Yeah. I mean, but I knew how to cope very well. So you you just keep going pushing through, you keep going through. And today, I just recently did a newsletter and I talked about pressure pushes you and capacity forces you to choose. Today I'm choosing. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm using my agency in ways that I haven't before. So, but it's really uncomfortable. It's because I just want the I just want the answer.

SPEAKER_01

I just, I really, it's really hard. I'm I'm I feel like I'm navigating it, but it's hard. I'm like, I and it happened so quickly. So I thought you were coming to Houston. We all did. And I was like, oh, I'm moving to Dallas. My stuff is still in LA. Cause I'm like, oh, I'm okay, I moved. It's like, it's hard. And I'm like, why I'm here. And then you like integrating into people's lives that already have lives that exist. And I'm like, I was ready to leave LA, but I'm grieving who I was. When you say you're grieving who you were, like, what do you mean by that? I just I feel like today I'll just be twiddling my thumbs. Just like, what am I doing? Which also I feel like the Lord is highlighting. Maybe we idolized what we did a little bit. Because now why do we feel empty without it? Like I'm not traveling as much. I'm doing a lot of sitting, and I'm like, bruh. And I feel like the other day God was like, I love you without anything on the table.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm like, You talk about that in the book too. You when you talk about your relationship status and having children. I think I remember you saying that God is always asking you the same question, will I be enough for you?

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we back. I read the book. You did read the book. Sure, better. Nah, it is it is the same. Dang, it is the same question. I didn't even think about that, but it is. I have a mentor. She like, you gonna live every word of that book. I'm like, again, again, and again. No, for real. Because it is like, I do feel like he's asking that, and he's asking that without anything else.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm gonna turn the tables on you because you said this. I mean, you sharing all your business. I mean, I dig a little. You said sometimes God sends you to a place where the environment calls something new out of you. Girl, what you think he's trying to pull out of you?

SPEAKER_01

You were so fun. No, so honestly, I do think that part is being revealed. Like, okay, so I I think you just mentioned this earlier. Like, I'm not a very disciplined person. Um, and since I've been an itinerant creature since 2023, there's a certain level of submission I don't have to do. Cause I just I have like a lot of agency, right? And then you bring it down to like church in LA is very hands-off. So they like, we so glad to have you here. You know, we're praying for you. So, like, if I want to go do something, I just go do it. I don't gotta check with nobody. And now I go to a church where it's like it's a church for real. So, like, in my brain, I'm like starting to plan stuff, but then I'm like going backwards and go like, do I gotta rent this by somebody? Yeah, like, you know, like even like I'm here in Houston, I'm gonna get on a plane in the morning because I have to go to church. That's like nothing nobody gonna clap for because nobody knows that. For the last, I don't know, since I moved. I mean you gotta go to church. Because I now have a place that I'm submitted to, right? Like, and here's what I mean, like, yeah, I'm getting on you. So like I'm getting like planted. Like, this is like the church the Lord sent me to. He's like, this is where you join, these your pastors, this where you go. Normally, if I go to a city, I'm five days in there just hanging out. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna go. But there's a certain discipline that says, nah, like I actually have somewhere I have to be committed to being there. That's not normal for me. So last week, I already had like, I was in Atlanta, and I'm like, oh, if I'm in Atlanta, like I'm gonna just stay till Sunday, I'm gonna go somewhere. And the Lord's like, no, you're not. Go and get a plane ticket, you're gonna go to your own church. Sounds like he's letting you rest where you are in Dallas.

SPEAKER_00

It is that I don't want that way. I don't want to never let you rest in a place where you no longer belong. Yeah, which is true.

SPEAKER_01

LA was like torment for me. Like, I would go, I would travel, and I would be so like vibrant, inspired, no matter where I was. The moment I got back in LA, it was like it was sucking the life out of me. So it's true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you got scripture right here too, Jeremiah 29, 11. Go ahead, tell the people what that's meant to be. You know that one. Oh, but you know that one, you know that I do know that. Go ahead, tell it to tell it to the people. I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

SPEAKER_01

And the irony of that scripture is that he's about to send them into exile. So it's like it's not like he just saying that because he's about to send them into a good place. They're about to be in a place where it feels like he's trying to kill them and take them out. And he's like, nah, I'ma prosper you. It's not to harm you, but you're gonna be better on the other side of what feels like it was designed to kill you.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. I think that so much of that is just true about life in general. I always uh I remember prior to ever going viral, I was like, you you can't heal yourself from being human. I almost feel like a lot of us don't want to experience what it means to be human, which is sometimes a lot of pain and suffering. And you don't get to decide how long you stay in that per se. You do get to choose how you respond to it. And that's the difference. Yesterday, when I was talking to that guy, he said that I think I already said this, but it just it stuck with me. Like, in order to truly have freedom, you have to have responsibility. And I think that responsibility is one of the hardest things to do because you have to take responsibility for a lot. Your thoughts, how you feel, your behavior that follows all of those things. And what tends to happen is a lot of us end up outsourcing our agency. We outsource our agency, going back to this idolatry again. And I'm going back to it again because I've been thinking about it a lot in terms of I think about the areas where I want to grow as a person as God continues to send this support from random people that you don't even know. And I think mine keeps going back to race. And I won't talk about it really, but you can idolize race. We're seeing it. We're seeing it play out for sure. Yes. I want to talk about it a little bit because for me it's it's uncomfortable because can we acknowledge that certain things exist? But where's the balance between saying or asking hard questions? Like, how do you even become so stuck on this topic that you can't be honest to say that your feelings of worthiness is attached to you feeling inferior to another race without seeing that we all are a part of his much bigger ecosystem. And even like with Black History Month this month, I don't feel a connection to it. And I don't feel a connection to it because I do think that there's a lot of idolizing in it. I understand the importance of it and what it means from a historical standpoint, but I also think that it's one of the things that continue to separate, stand it, it continues to separate us, and we cannot get progressive movement because I want to be unique. I want to be special. It says who? Who says that you're unique andor special? So I think that and when you go to like the DEI conversations and all that that we're having, like DEI has to create separation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's a I mean, no, it's it's the truth. It's the truth. I think um I see that a lot. Um, I was just talking about this the other day because when something happens, there's like this call for if you got influence, you gotta say something. And I'm like, no, I don't.

SPEAKER_00

Why you don't? I mean, and I and I feel the same way because you don't know how I support. Yeah, and how I support in general.

SPEAKER_01

You don't get to bully me. Like, like, I just I don't like it. I don't like group think. It it makes my stomach hurt. It's ruining the society. Like, every here's the thing. I may not agree with your choice, but I respect that you have a choice. Yes. Like you could choose to do whatever you want to do. Like, that's just the world we live in. Jesus died and gave us a choice. Even he's like, you can choose me or not. Yeah. And I think this like forced to just because I'm black, I gotta think the way black people think. Right. About everything. Everything. And it's like, nah, I am black, but I'm, and I love the culture. I I love us, but not at the expense. Not at the expense of my salvation and my belief system. And I and I know you're gonna tell me that I'm in that white man's religion and it has warped my brain. And it's like, nah, I met Jesus for real. And I don't care what color he is. You know what I'm saying? Like, he might even have a color. Like you would say, none of that matters. I know what Elizabeth sees. I know what he's done in my life, and my allegiance and my loyalty is to him. And if he doesn't tell me to say anything about whatever you think I should say it or how you think I should say it, I don't have to. And I think that's the part that's frustrating because we are serving our image and our first image. If you are a believer, if you're not a believer, then have at it. Do whatever you want to do. But if you identify as a follower of Jesus, there's a there's a standard that you're held to and it ain't based off the color of your skin. And I'm not, I'm not knocking, I'm I think you should. I I love that the Lord chose to put me in this chocolate body. Me too. Yeah, I love it. Me too. I'm glad I got some color. Okay, I'm glad I look 16 and I'm 35. You know, like I love that. And but when it comes down to it, my greatest commandment is to love my neighbor as myself. And that's to be obedient. Is to be obedient to the Lord. And I'm sorry if that makes you feel like I gotta choose a side, but I'ma I'ma always spit truth. I'ma tell you that there is a system within the Christian faith of people who are racist. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And also And that's the thing, too, thinking that everything is gonna be solved too. It's not. Like it's the the you're always gonna have good.

SPEAKER_01

This is a fallen world. It's a fallen world. And I think I see a lot of like people discrediting who God is. It's like there's no way he could exist, and and the world is like this. And it's like, well, then you gotta also bring that to yourself and go, there's no way you could exist because you told that lie on your taxes last year. So if he gotta get into the world problems, he got to get into yours too. Because he's a just God. So if he stops, whatever you think he should stop today, also whatever you just did last night, he's getting into that because he's just and he's fair. And so this is a fallen world. We have been left to steward this. So, what are we doing about this? And so I think like there's just so much. I just wish everybody stopped talking. It's just listen a little bit. A little bit. Because I think that is the thing that's the pride, whether it's in my culture or my race or my belief, the pride is what's hindering our progression. Because nobody's having conversations with the intent to listen and to hear is I want to you gotta be okay with discomfort. Exactly. You gotta be okay with discomfort. And you gotta be okay with I think if we how I approach conversations, whether I think I'm right or not, is from the perspective that I could be wrong about this. And I think if we all humbled ourselves just to hear, I don't gotta agree, but I could value you as a human being and at least hear you. And then we could walk away and be like, oh, okay. Yeah. We didn't agree on that, but I understand you a little bit. How did you arrive at that? You know, like, and I think there's just it's so much pride. It's it's ruining our ability to communicate and exist even if we don't agree.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So much so, because that's the same thing. When we talk about race, I think gender too is another thing that you can idolize as as as well. I saw a post the other day. Somebody had a woman, she had just had a baby, and she says she was already, I mean, she just had a baby like 25 seconds ago and was already experiencing post uh postpartum. And I'm like, but that's how we have conditioned ourselves. We have conditioned ourselves to not even experience pain yet. And already promote discomfort. Yes. And I think that that is, it's almost like we we we we want, there's enough suffering like we want to suffer and we don't realize how we do it. I want to go back to gender because I do think that we idolize gender, and I've done it before. When I think about how I showing up as a wife in the past, I do more. I get the kids to bath, I do this, I do this. And you start to keep score, and what tends to happen is I start to idolize what makes me a woman. So much so that I cannot respect the covenant that God has brung together. In fact, what you do is you start to pull yourself further and further away. For sure. Because you see yourself as smarter or you see your per yourself as the breadwinner. And that's why I say I notice that whenever I listen to you, you're always calling out the things that we I Idolize just in general without us unconsciously knowing it, you can I you can idolize like being a a mom. Oh, for sure. Just it's it's literally anything. But there's so many progressive movements today. A lot of the progressive movements, they support a lot of what we're we're speaking to right right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, but I think that that's intentional. It's like the goal is to provide you with that's the thing. I think that's what separates the kingdom from other things, is that this one is gonna cost you. Something has to die. Something has to be, you have to be separated from something unto something, versus any other thing outside of that is gonna is gonna be focused on you. Right. And what you can do to be better, and it requires you to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Process is just the guest that I had yesterday. I was terrified to bring him on as a guest. As I'm cleaning up and putting my son's uh project of Martin Luther King up because I can still love how God made me, and I really can because he's made me in his image. However, you can't be so connected to that that you're willing to turn your ears off to anything that no longer resonates with that for sure.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. Because I think it's it's then it's like this is a part of who I am, but also And it's just a part, a part of who I am. And it's like, but I I bear the image of Christ, and anything outside of that image has to surrender and submit to that image. And I think that is the harder part. It's like even when you mentioned like as it relates to idolizing gender, it's like within marriage, it's like now I have to see that I am an image bearer of God through who he created me to be as a woman. But then my husband is an image bearer of God in what he created through a man. And together we are the full expressed image of God. Without him, there's only partial. My kids are only receiving partial of what God intended for them to receive. But that's why when we come together, we express God in the way that he intended for it to be expressed through our nature. And so I think when I realize that there's a way I honor what you bring to the table.

SPEAKER_00

Girl, you be preaching. I ain't lying to I ain't girl, I ain't gonna hold you. You be preaching, Brenda. I'm for real. I'm so sorry to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01

You be preaching. You be cracking me up. I'm just saying, it's like, but I think when we view it that way, we learn to honor people. Because it's like, even outside of marriage, just people in general, right? So however God created the person I can't stand. It's like, yeah, but they have an expressed image of God, and I honor that they are an image bearer. Even if I don't, I can't rock with everything they do, at the very core of it, God created you. And there's a part of what you have, even if you haven't tapped into it yet, that is a part of him. So I'm gonna honor the God in you, even if you have yet to like realize it.

SPEAKER_00

I I was reading this book uh a couple weeks ago on self-compassion, and she referred to it as a three-legged stool. You most people, when you think of self-compassion, you think of being kind to yourself. Well, it doesn't really do anything without those other two components. And she most of it was based off her lived experiences, but she needed to bring research into it. I'm doing that with capacity too. Oh, right. Yeah, like it's I'm telling you, God gave it to me. Come on. Come on. But the second part of it is being able to see your common humanity. So if you always see yourself as unique andor special, or you know how to create that separation. You don't value. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So self-kindness or self-compassion is always fleeting for you. So it's most people don't realize that the focus is on their self-esteem. And if I am always looking at my self-esteem, I'm always evaluating my worth. I'm always making a judgment, which means that if the self-esteem is up here, then I don't really create enough space for me to learn to truly be compassionate to myself. And I was like, gosh, like that was so, so, so, so good. Because we do hear a lot of superficial conversations within the mental health space. It's like, be kind to yourself, say these positive affirmations. You can say them all day long, but if you don't truly believe it, live it, if you can't see how your pain is not better than my pain, you'll never truly learn to really be kind to yourself. Because there's always gonna be a judgment there. And she went even further to say, she, and I don't remember what this was in context to, but she talked about a judgment versus discerning wisdom. And I was like, oh, that is so good. So good. What's the difference? A judgment makes it doesn't recognize duality. It's like, this is right, this is wrong, this is bad. Discerning wisdom will say that, well, I do understand that not all people are good. And because of that, I may experience this. However, that doesn't change the way that I continue to behave as it relates to my values and who I say I want to be.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's real because I I had a conversation with a guy one time and he was like, he was like, it's okay to disagree, right? Like he said that to me. And I'm like, I agree with that. And he was like, you don't really disagree. He was like, you might think something, but if somebody says something opposite of what you think, you don't really like disagree. And I was like, yeah, because I'm understanding. It isn't, I could disagree, but I don't gotta say I disagree because the goal isn't for me to disagree. I want to understand how you arrived at what you at. I can't even actually like properly educate if I don't understand how you arrived at a wrong conclusion, right? Before I call it wrong. And so I was like, I feel like he was kind of trying to like jab at me for that. And I was like, I don't care. But a part of it is because I'm inquisitive, I just want to know. Right? Right. And then the other part is like, ah, even though I don't agree with it, I see how you arrived at that. I see how you got there. It's not gonna change what I think. But I now have a better understanding. Uh, at the very basis, I know how to pray for you because I'm like, ah, it's gonna be really hard for me to. That's why, like, somebody asked me, like, oh, you said you don't introduce people to church, you introduce them to Jesus. I'm like, yeah, because people have so much history with church. Right. And if they were damaged there, I'm not jumping into a conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Same way that I feel about mental health, right? So many people have such a bad experience with religion. Exactly. Start there. You you can't start there. So you truly have to meet people where they're where they are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it's like somebody's well, I'm I can't stand church. It's terrible. I don't agree with that. But let's talk about how you got there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then I'm like, okay, I can understand that. Well, like, let's just go to coffee once a week. Let's just talk about, you know, and then eventually we're gonna go from coffee and you're gonna ask, well, where do you go to church? I think I wanna try it out, right? So there's this like, I'm always interested in taking the journey with people. Most people just want to convert on hand. This is what I believe, you're wrong, you should believe what I believe. That's not even how you started to believe that. And so I think like I just honor people's journey, and I feel like there's a way I can share truth, but also respect your journey with the Lord and how he intends to bring you to him.

SPEAKER_00

I think that oftentimes, too, when you talk about honoring people's journey, most people see that today as validating. Yeah, affirming. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Tell me why it's crazy. Well, it's crazy. Like, I think I think the first time we met, I use the same passage of scripture. It's like the woman at the well. It's like she is absolutely not a person Jesus should be talking to at all. She's a Samaritan and she ain't married, and she just been with five people. You know what I'm saying? She's not the person that he should be talking to. He sends the disciples away purposely because he has an assignment with this woman and he's eliminating anybody that would tell her she's not worthy of it. And then he has a conversation with her before he challenges her lifestyle, he offers himself. And to me, making space for people's journey is saying, like, Jesus says, if you knew who I was, I could give you water that would quench that thirst. So all the stuff that you've been chasing, I'm really the answer to that. And he engages with her in a conversation. And then once he has that moment with her, then he says, Where's your husband? She's like, I got no husband. He said, I know you've had five. And the one you with ain't yours either, right? He calls her out. But instead of her being offended by that, she goes, You knew all that about me, and you still talk to me. You still asked me to get you water, you still sat here, waited for me. That's an intentional encounter. And so I feel like I could disagree with you and still hold space for your journey. I'm gonna talk to you. I've I have friends that live different lifestyles than I agree with, but I'm somebody that y'all always could call. I'm always talking to them. Am I going to the wedding? No. I'm not going. But I'm gonna still pick up the phone. I'm gonna still pray for him. I'ma still talk to him. We could go to lunch. We could, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not affirming your lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I am loving. That's really hard. It's really hard because you have to get to a place of accepting that you're going to disappoint people and being okay with that. Yeah, yeah. And it's tough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Especially if you love the person, right? It's like, nah, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00

I I actually did a clip today where I talk about naming the thing has actually become the problem today. We have gotten so wrapped up in acknowledging people that it has shifted into like this sense of permanence. Like this is your identity, and in order for me to continue to validate you, and what ends up happening is you never really can shift uh uh you can't shift in that way, you kinda stay stuck. Yeah, that's fair. So, yeah, let me see what else I got in here. I love talking to Brenda's. Like, I'm I'm glad I I don't do those lives today, but I'm glad that I did. Actually, I just opened a page to it. You said this experience taught me that no matter what you follow God, I knew that was only the beginning of what would be required of me throughout life. Possibly I would have to make decisions that would please God but disappoint people, even the ones that I love.

SPEAKER_01

That's what happened. That's what happened. Yeah. It's tough. That I almost ain't put that chapter in the book, but it was it was real life because I did for a period of time walk away from my calling because I just didn't like what I was suffering through. Not that I shouldn't suffer, but I think it just caught me off guard because it was like not the people I thought I was going to.

SPEAKER_00

You talked about it in the book, you might as well tell us. Oh yeah, the denouncing thing. That was one thing, but there was another thing that you had talked about, like the your the relationship that you Oh yeah and the way that you handled it, I think is the most important thing, but yes. Go on, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, go ahead, yeah. What you want me to tell the story?

SPEAKER_00

No, I don't need we don't need to hear the story.

SPEAKER_01

No, just say like what what yeah, I think you in a relationship. Yeah, I was in a relationship, and I experienced the betrayal in that relationship. Mm-hmm. You gotta at least say what the betrayal will.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, at least say what.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so okay, so I was dating a guy and found out that he was like in an intimate relationship with my pastor. And yeah, I think that like navigating that was like navigating devastation and not really understanding why I think it not why they did what they did, but like why did that have to happen to me? Um, but I think like in that situation, I feel like I met God for real. Like, because I grew up in church, I think I grew up in the religion of part of my faith, rather. And I think that season of my life produced a relationship that I get to live in the fruit of now for sure.

SPEAKER_00

What did you learn from that? I learned from that. Because that's another thing when it comes to like idolizing.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I think I learned, yeah. I think I learned that I did actually have a relationship with God from that. And the reason I say that is because I never walked away from God. I never even desired. You never trashed anybody either. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, it was back to that that valuing thing and and people and honoring image bearers despite their brokenness. It was like from the very beginning of that situation, I could always see, I could see them. I feel like I could see them the way God did. Yeah. So I always had compassion for them. I always felt bad for them. Even though it was like crushing my own life. It was like there was this lens that I think I had almost immediately where I learned to see people the way that God does. Because He doesn't see us through our brokenness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You can only really do that when you learn to really see yourself, though. You know, like you had to really learn to face yourself. And when you learn to face yourself, you literally can see yourself in other people. Maybe I wouldn't do said thing that they did. Sure. You didn't betray people. I didn't feel in somebody's story. Exactly. And and I and that's that piece where self-compassion comes, and you can continue to build that relationship with God. If not, you'll continue to create that.

SPEAKER_01

Because it's gonna always happen. Like we live in a fallen world full of broken people. You're gonna be hurt. Um, and I think in later seasons, I didn't always respond that way. I think I just had a grace from God to do that. Because I even now sharing it, I'm always like, I don't know, y'all. I just it was the Lord. I don't have an explanation for how I navigated that or how I didn't go crazy.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I I could talk to you all day, Brenda. I really, really could. The journey of yes, the everyday adventure of radical obedience. What do you believe you gifted the world with when you put this book out?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, I hope. I hope I gifted them with an invitation to do life with the Lord. You can read that, and I feel like sometimes people will be like, oh, you got to you said yes, and you got to live these great things. And I'm like, nah, I said yes, and I got to meet God for real. And I always say, like, obedience isn't about what you get on the other side, it's about the God you meet through it. And I hope I gave language and tangible steps on what it looks like to follow the Lord. Your story might not pan out how mine did, but it absolutely will grow your intimacy with the Lord because to say yes to him is to walk into the unknown, just over and over again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think I said that recently, pain feels safer than any unknown possibility.

SPEAKER_01

It's true. Mm-hmm. We'll suffer. Because at least I know what this feels like. Right. Right. I have no idea what the unknown is.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much, Brenda. Thank you for having me. Pastor Brenda. Elay. I'm just joking. I just like play with her. No, seriously. This is a great book. Uh, Brenda is an amazing person. Who she is is who she is. I like folks like that.

SPEAKER_01

For sure.

SPEAKER_00

Like she doesn't try to be anything other than Brenda, and she just has a way of connecting with anybody. And she's explained it in so many different ways. And I think that her book invites the opportunity for you to connect with her while also connecting to something much deeper. So I would encourage all of you to grab this book. And then, Brenda, if you can look at your camera and tell the people where to find you.

SPEAKER_01

You can find me on all platforms at I Am Brenda Palmer, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, all of the above at I Am Brenda Palmer.

SPEAKER_00

All right, y'all, that's it. This conversation calls you to pause or reflect on how you're showing up in your own life. That's intentional. Capacity is revealed in the moments we choose engagement over retreat. Thank you so much for spending time with us. I'm Raquel Hopkins and this is Capacity Combos. If you're looking to continue to engage with me, I would encourage you to follow me on Instagram. You can search me by Raquel the Capacity Expert. It's Raquel underscore the underscore capacity underscore expert. Until next time.